religion
27 Mar 2008
Who's Paying for World Youth Day?
When the Catholics take over Sydney Harbour in July, who will be footing the $150 million bill? Jennifer Mills has the budget breakdown
With only four months to go, the estimated costs of World Youth Day have risen by 50 per cent to $150 million, according to an internal memo reported by the Sydney Morning Herald recently.Federal cash grants provide up to a quarter (20-24 per cent) of the blowout, but this does not include any of the Government's in-kind support, such as security, accommodation (pilgrims will be billeted at public schools as well as Catholic and private homes - newmatilda.com readers who are parents of school-aged children might have received a letter asking them to consider registering as hosts), emergency health care and use of City venues.
This includes up to 300 venues for three mornings of catechesis (where bishops give religious instruction to the youth in question). A "vocations expo" will also be held from 15-18 July at the Convention Centre in Darling Harbour to encourage youth to join religious orders. That's where you can pick up your Benedictine showbag - but don't expect it to contain any brandy samples.
Jim Hanna, Director of Communications for World Youth Day (WYD) confirmed that renting spaces such as the Convention Centre "is part of [the] in-kind support" being provided by the State Government. But he says the real cost of the event will not be known until pilgrim numbers are finalised.
Pilgrims pay a registration fee ranging from $50 to $395, depending on their country of origin. Registration includes health insurance, transport while in Sydney and visa fees - also part of Federal in kind support). WYD's own attendance estimates have ranged from 125,000 to 500,000 (the Church denies that estimates are falling), so that could generate between $6 and almost $200 million.
The church "and donors" account for a slightly smaller 18-22 per cent of the budget.
The Vatican might not match the Government in dollar value, but it can offer benefits that Kevin Rudd and Morris Iemma can't. The Holy See has chucked in plenary indulgences for anyone who participates in certain rituals around the tour of the WYD cross. You don't even have to be in Sydney to have your slate of sins wiped clean, as the cross - the Olympic Torch of Christian symbols - is travelling through every diocese in the country.
The Archdiocese of Sydney is contributing $15 million toward WYD events and denies it will be making a profit from the event. On optimistic days the pilgrim juggernaut is expected to hit 500,000 participants and bring millions of tourist dollars into the state.
Image thanks to Lukas.
As a topical comparison, Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras brings a comparable number of visitors and an estimated $45 million into New South Wales, but attracts zero funding from either the State or Federal Governments. When Clover Moore raised the lack of State funding in Parliament two weeks ago, Iemma directed her to Events NSW, the new coordinating body which is supposed to attract more events to the State. Victorians aren't that far ahead - John Brumby offers the Melbourne equivalent, Midsumma, a token $15,000.
The church has no shortage of corporate sponsors. Listed partners include Qantas, the Commonwealth Bank, Catholic Church Insurances Ltd and Mercedes-Benz. The "song benefactor" is Mineralogy, which owns the Fortescue iron ore lease near Dampier in WA - so we're thinking there'll be a little rock and a little metal.
The $150 million price tag doesn't include disruptions to the normal running of the city. The Sydney Harbour Bridge will be closed for a mammoth 12 hours on Saturday 19 July, for the pilgrims' walk from North Sydney across to Randwick to listen to Pope Benedict XVI conduct a vigil mass (and no, they can't just walk on the water).
Nor does it include the payouts. The NSW and Federal Governments are providing $41 million to the Australian Jockey Club and the racing industry to reserve Randwick Racecourse for the mass, but the church denies this is all for World Youth Day. It also covers lease extensions and upgrades to Warwick Farm racecourse.
Even at this late stage the budget could grow further. "It's going to depend on how many pilgrims come," Hanna explains. "80 per cent of that [$150 million] is delivered to pilgrims - meals, accommodation, backpacks - which will affect things like how much accommodation we need."
"The other 20 per cent is staging, building structures, preparing altars and sites for pilgrims... so we can ensure things can be done safely, toilets, lighting, we've got to put in sound equipment, arrange a host broadcaster," he continues. In Australia, SBS will screen the opening and closing events and papal arrival on free-to-air TV.
Security for the head of one of the world's wealthiest states, Pope Benedict XVI, has already been compared to that laid on for the APEC summit and the Sydney Olympics. Police Minister David Campbell did not comment on the projected costs.
The free visas offered to pilgrims are also free of the usual quotas, so perhaps this ambitious Catholic event will turn out like the Olympics in more ways than one. We might even see a few defections.
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"As a topical comparison, Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras brings a comparable number of visitors and an estimated $45 million into New South Wales, but attracts zero funding from either the State or Federal Governments."
I’m pretty sure you didn’t do your homework before you picked the Mardi Gras as comparative event, but I’d hate to suggest you just chucked it in there just because of the Catholic Church’s position on what the poor and ignored Mardi Gras revelers are celebrating.
But your comments are so far off the mark it’s unbelievable. Just to point out a few quick pearlers. The Mardi Gras is hardly a "topical comparison". It happens every year for starters. And it’s not a national event - let alone international - anywhere near the scale of World Youth Day (WYD).
As for a "comparable number of visitors" - you’ve got to be kidding. Can you add?
The "mammoth" 12 hour shut down of the bridge for a one-off pilgrimage is nothing compared to accumulating the hours of streets shut down for yearly events - such as our comparable Mardi Gras.
The so-called $45 million in revenue from the Mardi Gras is also paltry compared to what government estimates are for WYD - you failed to mention that, or even find out what it was perhaps.
Is your disgust with the way WYD is being handled actually because there is a true injustice in the way the government and companies are dealing with this massive event, or is it simply that it involves the Catholic Church? I’d ask yourself that before you try pontificating on this topic again.
Re the papal visit. Can this be the same pope when as a cardinal persuaded the last pope to order all bishops to cease calling Anglican churces sister churches because the only real Christian church was in the Vatican? Did he also repeat that statement when made pope? Now that Anglican taxpayers are helping pay for his visit it would be a nice gesture if he gave the Anglican church an indulgence allowing them Apotolic Succession denied them at the time of the Reformation.
Cathjam,
The Catholic Church could pay for this event itself - without holding out its grasping hand for my taxpayer dollars! $150 million (just in subsidy!) for an orgy of superstitious self-gratification while disease and hunger flourish in poor parts of word. And you people call yourselves "Christians"!
I’m sure there could be some savings made to avoid the 50% cost blow out.
Why does the Pope and other WYD participants require security? Surely with God on your side…
What’s the point in using the harbour bridge? What better way to celebrate WYD than a good Old Testament parting of the harbour?
Hey jonnyboy55, christians are taxpayers too.
But anyway, what do you know World Youth Day? Anything? It’s hardly an orgy of superstition. I haven’t been to one myself, but reading some of the addresses of Benedict and previous Pope John Paul II as part of some research I’m doing on it, it’s anything but self-gratifying. Rather, these guys are quite insistant in telling young people to snap out of their insular worlds and do something with their lives: to make a difference, to be generous, to give of themselves even when it hurts. In other words, it’s real and it’s demanding.
Be careful of whitewashing everything attached to religion with some idea it’s just a feelgood, we’re-gonna-live-forever, man-in-the-sky mumbo-jumbo.
Maybe you’re right, Cathjam: Fr Natzinger, Benedict MCCXVI, might turn out to be a closet Liberation Theologist. Or a closet something.
There is one thing that is pretty clear - people are really showing their colours on this one! I just hope those against WYD can do their research better than Jennifer Mills and the bigoted people posting above.
Isn’t it about about time you faced reality? Catholicism is alive and well, a valid part of our society, and one that deserves all the recognition other groups get.
In relation to the billeting of pilgrims at (non-denominational) public schools I found it interesting to discover that the public schools around the Randwick Racecourse area were required by the Department of Education to pay for essential fire safety upgrades to their halls where the pilgrims are to be accommodated, from their own operational budgets. With no extra funding from anywhere.
School halls as places of assembly have different fire compliance rules applying to them than if they are used as places of accommodation. The upgrade costs are significant when you are operating on a break even budget.
Thanks Mr Carr and Cardinal Pell, for that legacy. Some of the proceeds of all that face painting and lamington baking that public school parents have to do anyway to prop up inadequate public school budgets has had to be diverted this financial year to pay for the fire safety enhancements to their halls - whether they wanted it or not.
With all due respect, not all of us are Catholics. And in relation to the no consultation and no questions to be asked about this additional burden to non-denominational public school budgets, and in the absence of additional funding being made available for this purpose, I can only say that some of the schools & P&Cs in the area might well have preferred to opt out of accommodating the pilgrims, if they had been given a say, in favour of using their scarce funds for other purposes.
If they’re not taking a swing at our jews then they are abusing our muslems until even that can no longer satisfy their frustrated malevolence so that now the sour and the bitterly twisted will spit venom at our Catholics and spitefully decry the world’s youth their day of international recognition.
We all know who the Pope is, and, in most cases, we even know what his views are. I wonder how many could answer the question "who on earth is Jennifer Mills"?
Other interesting questions are "how many dollars do 500,000 "pilgrims" need to spend daily to return a yield on an outlay of $150 million" and "who the hell cares"?
Ultimately, the rest of us look forward to all the great fun witnessing the young celebrate their youth as the sour-puss brigade chew on their lemons.
George Vickers
Don’t worry Jennifer, I’m sure it will be money well spent.
Wow looks like the anti-catholic bigots are out in force.
Suggesting that the Mardi Gras attract the same amount of visitors as WYD is nothing short of a furphy. The estimated international intake is 500,000 visitors. This would be bigger than the Olympics in a shorter period of time.
As it seems that the Catholic Church in the Vatican alone has something like $45 billion in assets, funds etc. I surely can wonder why the Australian Taxpayer has to pick up so much of the bill for this religious extravaganza of an event celebrated by a Church which murdered hundreds of thousands of women as witches in the Middle Ages, in mindless celebration of their subjugation of women world wide, which continues to this day.
What the Pope is trying to do here is bring the young back to the Catholic fold, because the Church is being deserted in droves, both by the young and the clergy. So the Australian Taxpayer is paying for a recruiting drive, to a church which remains welded to the Middle Ages, and pretty much irrelevant to the world today.
Dazza.
If 500,000 international visitors travel to Australia for the event I will be astounded.
I’m basically a hardcore atheist, but I’ve got no problem with some public funding for a World Youth Day. It’s not like this country is rummaging around for spare change at the moment to feed everyone.
I used to be really against public funding of "non-essential" stuff like arts, sport, government cars, etc … I think a lot of my opinions were (ironically for this thread) Catholic guilt about waste and excess, but then I realised we live in a land of plenty and there’s no reason to be so miserly. Life’s too short to b*tch and moan about what other people have (as long as there is some vague attempt at being equitable (ie the level of public funding for private schools is a bad thing)). I wouldn’t turn down government funding for something I or my friends thought was important.
As long as none of the funds are used to discriminate against people (eg. non-believers and women and gays are allowed to attend if they want) then it’s not such a problem to me. I have enough "faith" in atheism to realise we don’t need to punish religious people for their beliefs, we just need to continue to present a viable alternative. (Besides being religious is punishment enough!)
The Catholic Church in Australia does have a net positive benefit these days I suppose (although I would love to see cheap housing built on all those prime church locations they were given for free by the State in the 1800s).
Having said all that I have a big question mark over $150,000,000!!! Someone somewhere is making a lot of money!
It’s a touchy issue, my opinion may change again next week!
Dazza - "to a church which remains welded to the Middle Ages, and pretty much irrelevant to the world today"
How do you reconcile that with the fact that there is an estimated 1 billion Catholics ?
Nobody’s perfect, JamesK ! At this rate, in another ten thousand years …..
Dazza, you’ve been dazzled by the past, I can see that. But using the events of the Middle Ages to criticise the Catholic Church? Get with the program buddy - it’s 2008.
I challenge you to find one single organisation in as many nations, reaching as many people, doing as much work as the Catholic Church. I’m not talking about evangelisation. I’m talking about tangible, dedicated, grassroots work to pull people out of the ruts we can all fall into. It’s hardly irrelevant. We hear precious little about the good it does through the media, thanks to nothing but ignorant prejudice and the fact that the CC does little to talk itself up.
But on your part, a little more research and a little less naivety will help you understand (not convert to, just understand) that this institution is not some grotesque blind leading the blind…despite the mistakes that have been made, by people like us, in its name.
And please don’t peddle that woman subjugation argument. Just because only men are priests and popes - oh such a coveted job, I’m sure you’d want to be one - doesn’t mean CC thinks less of women. Show me a non-Christian society where woman is equal to man. Even better, show me a secular society where it is so. Hang on, did I just read that in Australia today women are paid on average 15 per cent less than their male peers for the same job? Australia, are you stuck in the Middle Ages?
I’m glad to see some discussion of this, and someone asking these questions, though I have no set-in-stone opinion on the issue of whether or not the event should be getting funding. I just notice the Church is always eager for public handouts, but less quick when it comes to public accountability. When, for example, will Catholics start demanding to elect their pope? Now that would be an impressive step towards democratic accountability.
Maybe I’d just love to see that election.
Here we go again, the spiritually dead, the soulless, pretending to care about issues they know nothing about. And then they justify their "deeply moral" position with references to the costs, the money spent, "taxpayer money" - whooooo, as if taxing the ATO has become the new definition of blasphemy. Scary stuff!
Somebody even suggested that Catholicism should become a democracy? Another judges Catholics on their record from medieval times.
I wonder, was it Catholic countries or secular nations who paid billions of "taxpayer funds" to orchestrate the genocide of Iraq, the shoah of Gaza or the killing fields of Afghanistan? I see no outrage from the soulless secular about the millions who have died from illegal depleted uranium ordinance funded with "our taxpayer money".
I wonder how much money Israel’s fascists have paid our secular federal government for it’s blind eye to the murder and pillage which is Palestine and, more recently, how many pieces of silver did we receive to ensure against our outrage of the Gaza Shoah?
And nobody sees the Pope strutting about on aircraft carriers declaring "victory" over the illegal occupation of foreign lands and I don’t see anybody complaining about the billions which BOTH of our revered Australian secular political parties have spent on illegal and immoral wars and the systematic murder of over a million people in the middle East.
Perhaps the many billions of Catholics, Jews and Muslims should unite in one huge crusade to rid the world of it’s spiritually dead instead of simply allowing our taxes to be used for murdering a few million Iraqis, Serbs and Afghans?
Maybe the Catholics should vote for their own Pope? Who would they choose? A new Richard the Lionheart perhaps? Now there’s someone who might put their catholic taxes to some good use!
George Vickers
Um, Rockjaw, you obviously haven’t been looking, because lots of religious and non-religious people have been against the war (and depleted uranium shells) in Iraq. Lots. A sh*tload actually.
Are you aware that Bush is, in his own words, a deeply religious man?
It’s funny … a lot non-religious people blame religious people for dragging us into the mess in Iraq (Christian president v. Muslim extremists) but a lot of religious people blame non-religious people for it (secular uncaring governments violating the sacredness of life). Perhaps it’s a case that caring people should blame the selfish warmongers instead of blaming particular religions (although btw, it is religion that’s caused this).
And, there are so NOT a billion *practising* Catholics in the world. I was baptised a Catholic and I should not be counted in that number!
As for being "spiritually dead", I feel fairly sure that my own spirituality, based on humanism and atheism and rigorous enquiry into the universe and society kicks the *rse out of any rote-learned institutionalised religion the major Churches seem to be peddling.
I like the idea of voting for the Pope … or at least greater transparency for the Church, they don’t pay tax after all…
coconaut - (although btw, it is religion that’s caused this) - is that right? Religion caused the Iraq war?
I’d like to see you prove that statement.
You’d like to see the Pope being voted in and I’d like to see atheists grouped together on the same list as "religious fanatics" and "terrorists" and "illegal combatants" so that they can also be legitimately nuked with the same taxpayer funded DU ordinance our secular money has funded against Iraqis and previously against the Serbians, but it’s not going to happen, is it coconut?
Or do you suggest that some religion is responsible for the DU weapons as well?
Has the Pope perhaps done some deal with George Bush to find more innovative ways to commit genocide against the infidels?
Jewish Rabbis have conspired with the West to find more effective ways to destroy the enemies of Zion? I can just see it, the rabbi, Nassi of the Sanhedrin, the Pope and Bush all doing the "Bad Boy Boogie" at the Vatican while discussing nuclear armaggeddon and the destruction of all infidels and atheists and secular states such as Russia and North Korea, all paid for, of course, with tax payer’s money of poor unsuspecting and innocent atheists who have gone to such incredible lengths to bring about peace and prosperity to the world.
During your "rigorous enquiry into the universe and society" you might want to spend some time coming back down to earth to enquire a bit about reality coconut.
George Vickers
The issue of principle is that providing public funds to subsidise a religious event is a violation of "separation of church and state". Unfortunately as we already know, this does not exist in Australia.
It also violates impartiality between religions. If subsidising the Catholic church to stage their event is OK then I look forward to the World Islamic Conference also being subsidised, as well as the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Religions are nothing more than organised mass delusions. It is the nature of delusions that sufferers exhibit psychological denial, but let me try anyway. All religions contradict themselves, each other, and they contradict reason, evidence and known facts. Therefore they cannot possibly be true. If religions were true, they would not be religions.
Has anyone tried to counter Richard Dawkins by trying to present actual evidence that their religion is true? No. If anyone wants to try see
http://www.challenge.theatheist.net
These delusions may motivate people to do good deeds. But they also cause great harm, and are now the single greatest cause of conflict and war. We do not need them and would be far better without them. (No, secularism is not fascism or communism. Please spare me the insults.)
The churches have accumulated billions of dollars in wealth due to their tax free status. It is obscene to the non-deluded that they should be further subsidised and promoted to host a propaganda event such as WYD. I urge all those who hold reason and rationality dear to make as much noise as possible to protest at this event.
John
Blah blah religion blah god blah blah pope blah church blah blah blah Hitler concordat blah benedict pius blah reformation blah witch evil blah blah blah god god saint devil angel spaghetti monster blah blah.
That being said, I’d like proper acknowledgment in this country of our Greco-Roman heritage. It is far more important than our ‘Judeo-xstian’ heritage.
Let’s see - Greco-Roman heritage:
sanitation; public baths; gymnasiums; universities; medicine; mathematics; astronomy; plumbing; Senate; Magistrates; constitutionalism; philosophy; amphitheaters; theatres; roads; engineering; arches; sculpture; art (remember graven images are impious after all); tolerance (yes, there can be many gods and religions); stadiums; alphabet; botany (you think all that latin and greek is there by accident?); togas (it’s not a party without them); and the list goes on and on.
Judeo-xstian: a proper regard for charity, the poor and the slaves. This allowed socialism (which the Spartans kind of invented anyway), and I won’t hear a word said against Wilberforce. Secular humanism however absorbed all that was good about christianity and stripped out all the rubbish about one and only god in three parts who created the world in six days nonsense. That’s why xstians hate secular humanists so much - we took all the good stuff and left the building.
Us poor soulless, godless secularists, with our soulless engineering, science, sanitation, universities, gymnasia, togas etc. Poor us.
Well Rockjaw,
I think it’s quite well established that Bin Ladin and Muslim extremists attacked America on September 11 and the neo-cons (an alliance between Christian conservatives and big business) used it as a pretext to drag their country into war with the unrelated issue of Iraq.
But if that is too tenuous for you (and it is pretty tenuous), what about stuff like this, where Bush is reported to have said "God told me to invade Iraq". If he said that, it must count as a fairly solid connection between religion and the Iraq war.
Don’t just take my word for it that Bush is a deeply religious man…
he reads the Bible daily, prays a lot, and God also told him to run for president (another one of God’s many mistakes?)
As for depleted uranium I know lots of people who have spoken out against it, both humanist and religious. Apparently depleted uranium doesn’t disciminate based on what a person believes.
As a wag, I want to note that in the wikipedia article on "depleted uranium", it’s main use in ammunition is in the weapon called the "Avenger" cannon from the "Thunderbolt II" jet aircraft … hmm, I wonder what the inspiration for those names was?
Well, coconaut, "Avenger" can definately go in the vengeful Yehovah column, but "Thunderbolt" sounds very Zeus/Jupiter to me, so sounds like that aircraft is another useful invention in the Greco-Roman column.
Just an aside, Coconaut, but actually most of the Neo-Con advisers and pushers of world domination behind George Bush were Zionist Jews, well supported by Bush’s Fundamentalist Christian backers who wish for Armageddon to come early, and want the Jews to make it happen. This is indeed a very strange arrangement of fellow travelers, and is no help to the world whatsoever.
And Cathjam, I am very much afraid that it is you who needs some more education. Even your most basic premises are incorrect. And here I am presuming you are female. Check your history, please, and that of the Catholic Church. You may be in for a horrible shock.
Dazza.
Dazza, that’s a load of rubbish, it really is. I just have to say it.
Coconut - "I think it’s quite well established that Bin Ladin and Muslim extremists attacked America on September 11" - is that right? And how is that established coconut?
Popular opinion and fact are not the same thing - it was you who made the claim that, using your own words, "rigorous enquiry into the universe and society kicks the *rse out of any rote-learned institutionalised religion the major Churches seem to be peddling" - coconut, show us some of your awe inspiring "rigorous enquiry" and present us all with the evidence which you have and which demonstrates that the perpetrators were indeed Bin Laden and "the Muslims".
I put it to you that your views are the result of your "FAITH" and not your "REASON" - faith in your media and your secular government who have profited from the "911 hoax" and I put it to you that you are in fact unable to present us with the evidence you claim is available to support your "facts". I put it additionally to you coconut that the pressure to nationalise and centrally control the education of our youth is motivated by the ease with which an ignorant public has learnt to accept, faithfully, and as you have demonstrated, foolishly and unconditionally, the many modern fictions such as the one that Bin Laden and "the Muslims" orchestrated the 911 attacks.
In fact I am willing to present a greater challenge to other participants of this forum than that presented by their "High Priest of Bullshit", Richard Dawkins, by offering to present to you, by way of reward, in gold gilded wrappings, the sum of double the $100,000.00 offered by Mr Dawkins if you can prove your claims in the way required by Mr Dawkins which is:-
"… By proof I mean evidence that can be tested empirically. That means scientifically and legally. This evidence must demonstrate beyond doubt that your (insert your ludicrous anti-muslim 911 claims here) is true, and that it is the only one that is true…"
In summary coconut, I put it to you that you are deluded by your faith based belief in atheism as is obvious from your delusional beliefs surrounding the 911 attacks, and if you are not deluded, then prove it.
For $200,000.00 I’ll let you put your money where your mouth is coconut and I challenge you to claim your prize.
George Vickers
Yeah, Cocoanut, whatever so-called ‘evidence’ you produce is obviously fabricated (and probably by the CIA/MI5/Mossad), while the REAL evidence of what REALLY happened has been suppressed (by the same Forces of Evil). There were no Saudis involved, and anyway they were brainwashed and anyway no planes flew into any buildings, and anyway only into one of them (the other one is a fake video) and anyway al Qaida is a CIA organisation, and anyway if it isn’t they couldn’t have done it, and if they bragged about it afterwards, that was for some other reason, and in any case the bin ladens and the Bushes and Carlyle are all in it together, and they didn’t anyway because explosives were laid inside all THREE buildings and that’s what brought them down, and anyway how can you prove otherwise ?
And anyway, everyone knows that the CIA flew a missile into the Pentagon, that’s obvious, and the complete absence of evidence, not the slightest leaking of the truth from the thousands of people who must have been involved, shows how effective the Americans can be, even against their own, and anyway the Pentagon is feuding with the State Department which runs the CIA, and anyway they all deserve it, good on al Qaida (Oops! They didn’t do it, did they?) Prove they didn’t do it !
So there ! You’ll never see that $ 200,000.
So, as I was saying, I don’t mind a bit of government funding for events like World Youth Day. We’re rich enough and big enough to say to a group that if you want to do something community based and inclusive, then here’s some money to help make it happen. Civic society needs all the help it can get in Australia these days, so I say good on the Catholics for getting off their collective a*ses and throwing a party. I hope the other religions also hold some festivals that bring lots of tourists to Australia. Although $150 million is a LOT of money. $30 million seems way more appropriate to me: (300,000 participants means $100 per person which is enough for free public transport and "hall hire". Not sure why they need $500 per person)
Of course the Pope will probably be a d*ckhead about it and insult his hosts by whingeing about the tolerant and inclusive way of life we have built in this great country, but oh well, maybe he’ll prove me wrong!
Young Australians attending will see through any "bad stuff" the Pope says anyway, being the bright young things they are!
Well well, we see "Honest Joe" has also experienced some difficulty with the concept of "empirical evidence" and "reason".
Here’s a hint Joe, ignorance, base stupidity and sarcasm are not reasonable substitutes.
Neither is paranoia.
I’m glad you mentioned paranoia Joe, which can be defined as a suspicion of others not based on fact, such as your suspicion of Muslims and of Bin Laden and for which you cannot present any facts in support of your suspicion.
Thanks for that Joe, your sarcasm as a substitute for fact is better understood now.
Well, Rogerio, if you think the Americans are so competent that they could blow up their own buildings, the two tallest in the world, and fake all those videos, and otherwise put together an incredibly complicated conspiracy against their own feuding agencies, with the connivance of those feuding agencies, and with not one person spilling the beans, and nothing going wrong for them, go for it.
Meanwhile, bin Laden brags about what al Qaida has done. Or is he a hand-puppet ?
During the many marches against the invasion of Iraq I found myself as an atheist happily marching with little old ladies from various church groups.
Its the religious right ala George W and various nutters in Australia that lurk on our own lunatic right wing, that claim God tells them to reinforce their own prejudices, that I find offensive. You only have to look at the type of people who gain power in large organisations whether religious or secular to realise they have more in common than they’d like to admit. Us poor powerless voices are ignored at every turn because we don’t have the narcissism and killer instinct to gain power at any cost.
apaul, "you just have to say it".
Then I just have to say that your ignorance knows no bounds. Or have I touched a raw religious nerve???? How about you check the religious affiliations of the neo-con advisers ( who had been there behind the scenes pushing their aims for many years) to Bush and Cheyney. Again, I say, almost every single one of them was a Zionist Jew!!! Their sole aim was to ensure that the new Right Wing Administration attacked any country seen as a possible danger to Israel. Check your REAL history!
Dazza.
Joe, Americans have planned and executed precisely this sort of black operation on numerous occassions before and there exists every likelihood that they will do it again, so your rather weak argument that "Americans" could not have facilitated the 911 attacks holds no water.
The actual point, which I notice you have missed, again, is that you confidently accuse "the muslims" and "Bin Laden" of committing the crimes of 911 and you do so despite being unable to present one single scrap of evidence to support your belief.
To believe in the existence of a thing for which there exists no empiricial evidence amounts to a triumph of faith over fact, the very flaw which you claim offends you about worshippers of other religious faiths.
Again the question is begged, since you claim, with great confidence, that "the Muslims" and "Bin Laden" committed the crimes of 911, could you please present to us some "empirical evidence" to demonstrate that it was "Bin Laden and the Muslims" or admit that you suffer those same "delusions" which you ascribe to people of faith and whose faith so offends you.
Admit it Joe, you have been duped into the belief that "the Muslims" did it because of your irrational faith in the integrity of a secular state and an equally irrational faith in the benevolence and accuracy of your news media.
Immense changes have occured to the entire globe since 911 and none of those changes has enhanced the concept of freedom, the very concept which, so it is claimed, motivated the attacks on 911.
The very same people who would decry the Catholic youth their own day of celebration are the same people who would force upon us all taxpayer funded wars and terrible offences against humanity on the strength of their own irrational faith and belief in their own fictions despite the absence of empirical evidence to justify those beliefs.
Yet they criticise the faith of others.
I strongly encourage all Australians, of all persuasion, to show a little less sour grapes, suck a few less lemons and join this celebration of life being held by our youth.
I wish our Catholics well and every success in their wonderful enterprise.
George Vickers
George,
I have never said or written that ‘the Muslims’ committed the crimes of 9/11. I have quite a bit of respect for aspects of Islam, especially those who follow the Surah V, 32: ’ … that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.’
And if you believe that the Americans could commit such crimes without making a single mistake worthy of the Keystone Kops, then more fool you. Tell me how they could have wired up both (or all three) buildings for explosives without anyone noticing. Or why the War Department would have let the State Department off once they got a missile up their arse. The Americans are the most useless, incompetent aggressors in world history and yes, of course, they will exploit the acts of al Qaida for all they are worth, whether it is their embassies in Africa, where hundreds of innocent Africans were killed (or was that the CIA?) of 9/11 or Bali or Madrid.
And actually I don’t think that al Qaida is a particularly religious organisation at all - it may use or exploit religion as a cover, but I think it is just a front for a power play of extreme right-wing people to overthrow their almost-as-reactionary governments. Religion is often used as a cover for right-wing political activity. Viz. Bush. A pox on them all.
Joe
Could you guys get any further off topic from the WYD article???
Hard to discuss an article so poorly researched for long.
Sorry, Ringo, I was trying clumsily to make the point that it is not religious people per se who bomb embassies or fly planes into buildings or blows up restaurants, only those who seek to misuse religion for their own political purposes. In today’s complex world, religion is a conservative (perhaps semi-feudal) but relatively harmless (wow, I’m gonna cop it now!) pursuit which still gives some people a bit of a moral framework in the face of the heartless and godless capitalism which has superseded it.
They are now anticipating 125,000 which isn’t quite the same as half a mill…
http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=6331
I’m not even going to start on the suggestion that religion is relatively harmless…. it’s enormously beneficial to many but it ain’t harmless.
Relatively harmless.
Yes, I know you said ‘relatively’.
Is that like, ‘The Pope was relatively quiet during the Holocaust?’
That wasn’t religion, that was Vatican politics. How’s that for mealy-mouthed apologetics ?
I am truly puzzled why the tax payer has to support what is fundamentally a Catholic Church recruiting drive. I acknowledge that Catholics make up a sizeable number of tax payers but their proportion does not make up anywhere near 50% of tax payers.
I also take exception to the current deeply conservative Pope whose opinions hardly resonate with today’s Australian values. Few Australians are aware that his previous position was a leader in the Holy Office of the Inquisition, yes I know they had a name change to The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith to improve their image and they no longer employ torture “As late as 1846, spying, torture by Inquisitors and repression were still being practiced in the Papal States in Italy.” Quote from THE INQUISITION, by Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh.
But I wonder if things have really changed that much when Jamie Doward, religious affairs correspondent for The Observer, on Sunday April 24 2005 wrote in an article “Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had ‘obstructed justice’ after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church’s investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.”
I suppose the acid test would be if a senior Islamic Cleric applied for an Islamic World Youth Day for next year whether the average tax payer would compliantly foot that bill as quietly as it has this one.
Well Atanner, if you were to ask nicely perhaps the Pope might bring Catholic policy back in line with more modern Australian views than the era of The Inquisition, hell, he might even "resonate with today’s Australian values", as you put it, by reintroducing torture in the same way Australia’s greatest ally, secular USA has done and which still receives the enthusiastic approval of not one, but two successive contemporary Australian governments.
Australia clearly does not consider torture, or detention without trial, or the contempt for internation conventions on war, or the illegal invasion of Iraq and the murder of millions of it’s innocent civilians or the genocide of hundreds of thousands in Israel, Palestine and Gaza as being inconsistent with "resonating with today’s Australian values". Hell, we have only this year begun to apologise for the crimes against our own indigenous Australians, and it’s a long time since the year 1846 which you imply was too late for Rome to "modernise" it’s views.
The "secret detentions and trials", provided for in Australia’s very recent "security legislation" and which has basically destroyed any right which any Australian may previously have enjoyed to consider their liberty and right to a fair trial before their peers guaranteed is certainly inconsistent with modern Catholic "values".
Current legislation might very well have been a page torn from "The Inquisition" and so if the Papal states were to reintroduce their dark age legislation perhaps we could draw yet another reason to "resonate" with the Pope.
Asio conduct secret investigations every day of our lives and I can recall nobody accusing them of "obstructing justice".
Our children make up the minority of our Australian population,, as do our veterans, and our retirees, our unemployed, our handicapped, our aboriginal communities and the list goes on, but no one will argue that these groups are not entitled to access public funding merely because, as you put it, "they do not make up anywhere near 50% of tax payers".
But there is hope Atanner, perhaps the Catholic Church might find it within their souls, if they search hard enough, to join our Australian "coalition of the willing" with it’s great enterprise described by our respected ally’s Commander-in-Chief as a "Crusade".
After all what better ally in a crusade than the one state which has past experience in crusades, don’t you agree Atanner?
Children, I think today we will have a lesson full of Red Herrings. Somebody say Vatican bad, but we know, don’t we, that US bad. Therefore Vatican not bad. Somebody say al Qaida bad men, but we know that US also bad men, therefore al Qaida not really bad men, good men, nice men, not US bad men. Also don’t exist, only CIA fabrication. CIA bad. So Vatican not bad.
Misery really does crave company.
How appalling and how ignorant the biggotted comments are in this thread.
Misogynists, homophobes, racists, anti-semites, Islamophobes and now anti-christian, anti-Catholic bigots all huddled in a bitterly twisted little group, each taking their turn to spit ignorant incomprehensible bile, rank stupidity, and, where logic escapes them, witless sarcasm.
Most of the comments in this thread share in common that arrogant presumption of the typical bigot that the remainder of humanity somehow harbours a deep desire to join their exclusive group, if only humanity was not so flawed.
Standards really have slipped considerably of late here on New Matilda and the thought that this group might be representative of the Australian society I share my life with is absolutely terrifying.
Does anybody else recall a time when New Matilda produced much less ignorant debate?
How deeply alarmed and disappointed I feel.
I can not follow any logic in the outburst from Rockjaw regarding my objections to me as a tax payer having to support the Catholic Church’s recruiting drive. I am well aware that the USA is a rogue state that under the policy of "do as I say not as I do" it has used torture from back as far as 1950 and continues to do so AND our governments have been immorally less than critical of this behaviour. However I fail to see how this has anything to do with us tax payers having to subsidize what is arguably the world’s richest religious denomintaion’s recruiting drive, particularly given its appalling record in the abuse of power. That is my opinion as a tax payer.
I might add from from a religious point of view that much of the historical elements of their theology which they take as fact is at best highly arguable and at worst just plain untrue.
I have no problem with Roman Catholics practising their religion for their own edification and comfort, I just object to their using the money that should be spent on Schools and Hospitals being syphoned off for their recruiting drive. There it is, that’s my opinion.
"…I have no problem with Roman Catholics practising their religion for their own edification and comfort…" - how very gracious of you Atanner, and since when have they required your approval anyway? Do you object to our Jews? What about our Muslims? Scientologists? Are our atheists okay to trust their beliefs? Yes? No?
You might be relieved to learn that Catholics respect your right to your beliefs more than you value theirs. None of them lodges objection to the use of their taxes for projects which are diametrically opposed to their values as you have done but your prejudice makes you blind to this stark contrast.
Your comment "…from a religious point of view that much of the historical elements of their theology which they take as fact is at best highly arguable and at worst just plain untrue…" is an ignorant statement typical from common bigots and it begs, at the very least, some evidence from you that what you "take as fact" is not "highly arguable" or "plain untrue".
How are Catholics "the world’s richest religious denomintaion" as you put it? Who conducted the audit? Provide us with a link or reference to the outcome of that audit and how is this relevant to Australian Catholics? If you are referring to the Papacy, let me remind you that the papacy is a sovereign nation state whose finances are irrelevant to this debate and they also have nothing whatsoever to do with you or any other Australian of whatever faith or lack thereof.
I agree with ShockDoc, every argument against this project has been based on pure unadulterated bigotry by a mob of the most sour and bitterly twisted bigots incapable of forming one single credible argument to support their hideously twisted prejudices.
Rockjaw, to find out accredited academic facts about biblical criticism you really need to to check out the research and teaching resources used by those disciplines and not rely on the web which positively drowns in facts conveniently supporting their author’s evangelical hypothesis’ while forgetting to mention other facts which discredit their claims.
Re your remarks about bigots; do you ever actually read your submissions before submitting them? Or do you ever actually read the other point of view in its entirety? My last line said "There it is, that’s my opinion", I do not deign to be so arrogant to suppose or imply that people need my permission to practise their religion.
Why do you need to twist my words to mean or imply something else than what was intended. Your strong defence of the position I oppose would indicate that you practise Roman Catholicism. Is it ethical for Roman Catholics to twist other people words and opinions into something that was obviously never intended? I think this outburst merely shows the lack of depth in your arguement against my position that the government money being spent on their World Youth Day would be better spent on our schools and hospitals rather than wasted on helping a wealthy reglisious denomination recuit new members.
Instead of trying to twist my words and offer your unsubstatiated opinion about biblical history. Perhaps you could in a logical fashion offer an explanation why I; a tax payer should support the governments generousity with tax payer funds to the Roman Catholic Church’s drive to recruit new members and encourage lapsed members to return. Which is where I started in the first place.
This time can we do it without the red herrings and the usual rhetorical tirade after all, your church has been given the money, I merely wish to know how it was justified.
My church was given nothing from any Australian taxpayer Atanner, I have no Church.
I am not a Catholic nor am I a Roman Catholic but I withold the right to practice catholicism or atheism or judaism or muslimism without begging the permission of any SOB who has a problem with any of the above beliefs.
People who didn’t like the idea of taxpayer money being spent on the Olympic games didn’t go around hurling abuse and insults at sportsmen and women but you come out of your corner making ludicrous and insulting claims about Catholic Australians and then you express surprise when somebody challenges you?
Get over your prejudice towards catholics Atanner because what allows you the right to embrace your views and beliefs is tolerance and a lack of prejudice from the rest of us Australians who accept your right to your views without hurling at you the same bigoted and insulting remarks which you have made in this thread against our catholics.
If you are going to make derogatory claims against Australian Catholics, or Muslims, or Jews or any other group of Australians at least provide some reference or other credible authority to support your claims.
GV
Please ignore the idiotic intolerant ravings of Rockjaw (George Vickers). I don’t recall even mentioning Jews or atheists and one of my earlier arguements implied that the Islamic Faith would be treated unfairly by comparison to how the Roman Catholic Church has been treated. And oh yea, terribly sorry, I did support the Olympics and did so proudly. So much for dealing with the red herrings I didn’t ask for.
Would anybody like to show me reasonable justification for using tax payer funds to assist the Roman Catholic Church to reclaim lapsed members and recruit new members to its faith. I believe the money would be better spent on our Schools, Hospitals and Public Transport.
I would happily respond to any egitimate comments but will not bother continue answering any more of George’s rhetorical tirades.
At this risk of being accused of being an anti-catholic bigot… the NSW government is spending $86 million on WYD plus $42 million compensation to the AJC for digging up Randwick Racecourse.
Sorry but this doesn’t make sense.
At this risk of being accused of being an anti-catholic bigot… the NSW government is spending $86 million on WYD plus $42 million compensation to the AJC for digging up Randwick Racecourse.
Sorry but this doesn’t make sense.
Atanner - "Would anybody like to show me reasonable justification for using tax payer funds to assist the Roman Catholic Church to reclaim lapsed members and recruit new members to its faith. I believe the money would be better spent on our Schools, Hospitals and Public Transport."
Well, Atanner, would anybody like to show me reasonable justification for using tax payer funds to assist the Olympic community to encourage new Olympians and to recruit new Olympians to those sports practiced by Olympians? Do you also believe the money would be better spent on our Schools, Hospitals and Public Transport?
Rogerio
woohooo!!!! less then 80 days until WYD!!!
I must admit that after reading the current comments in this discussion i am intrigued by many people’s points of view. The Catholic Church has made and still makes many mistakes in its views and actions. World Youth Day is not one of them. Pope John Paul II introduced WYD in 1984 as a way for them to celebrate their Christian identity and also to celebrate their love for Jesus. I find it indicative of our society that as soon as an event branded as ‘religious’ is given funding there is an uproar. Many people have commented on the Catholic Church’s assumed wealth, the Catholic Church is not "rolling in it" as many people have mistakenly accused. There are many other institutions in the world that are far richer than the Catholic Church and do not contribute to society half as much as they should.
I find it very interesting that people have complained about the amount of taxpayers money being spent on WYD, i would safely bet that if it were the olympics or the soccer world cup etc. that were being funded there would be half the crtiscism that WYD is receiving. If that. All because it is a ‘religious’ event.
I don’t care if you are atheist or buddhist or Jewish. I believe people have the right to that choice, i also believe in people being tolerable of others opinions and religions. I certainly am. What i DO care about however is that people are sitting on their moral high ground and forcing their opinions and ideals on others.
I am proud of being a catholic and i most certainly am looking forward to going to World Youth Day in July. I hope that people will be considerate and mature enough to either present respectable, researched and mature opinions or keep their ill expressed opinions to themselves. Using profanities and arguing for the sake of arguing is neither constructive nor helpful, i am sure many of you would agree. I just hope that people can accept that World Youth Day is happening, it is being partly funded by the Government and that it will rejuvinate the Catholic Church in Australia like never before. Perhaps this rejuvination or ‘recruiting drive’ as some of you so ‘skillfully’ put it will encourage our youth to do something for the less fortunate in Australia and the world. Pope Benedict encourages Youth to look beyond themselves and fill the needs of others less fortunate than themselves. Catholic or not that is something we should all be striving for wouldn’t you agree?
I welcome factual and realsitic argument and discussion on this topic as many of you do but please, if the comments, like the article, are going to be ill researched and even more badly written, please, do us a favour and keep them to yourselves.
Perhaps you could go watch the olympics, allthough the government probably funded that too and there are far more starving people there than in Australia so on second thoughts you better not.
Well said Jordana!! The majority of Australians support you wholeheartedly, and I am one of them.
Ignore the sour grapes from the frustrated tired and incompetent fringe element and go do your thing!
May you enjoy every success with your WYD!
Rogerio
Thankyou Rogerio, it’s wonderful to know that not everyone is against WYD. I am sure that myself and thousands of other young people will throuoghly enjoy WYD and i hope that many other Australians will too!
Jordana
Quote: for
Catholic Church is not "rolling in it" as many people have mistakenly accused. There are many other institutions in the world that are far richer than the Catholic Church and do not contribute to society half as much as they should.
Who said there weren’t wealthier institutions? At least they don’t pretend not to be wealthy. The point is the Catholic Church is wealthy enough to fund this themselves.
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/16261.htm
Quote: for
I find it very interesting that people have complained about the amount of taxpayers money being spent on WYD, I would safely bet that if it were the Olympics or the soccer world cup etc. that were being funded there would be half the criticism that WYD is receiving. If that. All because it is a ‘religious’ event.
So the Olympics are for everyone right?! And WYD is only for Christians…don’t make silly comparisons.
So would the Christians here mind if atheists or Hindus or any other group got $150million for a gathering?
Quote: against
The issue of principle is that providing public funds to subsidize a religious event is a violation of "separation of church and state". Unfortunately as we already know, this does not exist in Australia.
It also violates impartiality between religions. If subsidizing the Catholic church to stage their event is OK then I look forward to the World Islamic Conference also being subsidised, as well as the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Quote: against
Nietzsche - I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct for revenge for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, petty — I call it the one immortal blemish of mankind.
And more relevant…
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.
Why quote others? Because i can
Some people have articulated views or thoughts I share better than I perhaps could, which does not rob my words of merit or worth.
I have been raised within and suffered the intolerance of Christianity…..that all things were born of guilt, and suffering the bane one must carry …searching for redemption in the hope of acceptance into heaven by God, who is by all accounts, a merciless and vengeful God. The words in the bible that describe his wrath speak enough.
In my 34yrs Christians and those of similar denominations have consistently been the most arrogant and intolerable of believers. What other faith knocks on ur door at 8am to push their faith at you? Arrogance indeed!
It is irrefutable church and states are intertwined, and from here it is easy to draw a line between bush and ‘some ’ of his motives.
I despair that our laws are partially born of its ties with the church.
I could go on.
WYD is an event no one, except Christians, want. And with all the blubbering about having charities and wanting to do good, the offensive amount of money this event will cost only causes more disdain to those who know better than to believe in what Christians do.
Answer me this, would your god rather her people be fed, healthy and have homes or for her church to have art and millions in property?
..how would god answer spending this money while you market yourselves as modest and meek and out to help others ? would jesus have spent 150 million on a gathering or fed the poor ?
I think you know the answer to this
perhaps the Hillsong mob should sell its business interests and some of its property and save a third world nation - if you conduct your faith online does it suddenly not make it a faith…or do you need money and property to really be a beleiver ?
to all those who Believe that we the non Christian taxpayers should not have to pay for this event. and to all those who are appalled at the new laws stopping people from legally protesting. You are Founded..
to all those arguing with the religious Zealouts. here is my advice.
Don’t Argue with an Idiot! they drag you down to there level and beat you up with experiance.
It is trully disgraceful that tax-payers are contributing the majority of funds for this religious nonsence called World Catholic Youth Day.And please can we have all media refering to this little get together for what it is…. World Catholic Youth Day.An event called World Youth Day would be a secular event with no religious overtones what-so-ever. I’ll be attending the protest against this farce on the 19th July. probably be arrested for my trouble as im sure my presence there will annoy at least one pilgrim. Come the Revolution
Not only is it not WORLD Youth Day but WORLD CATHOLIC Youth Day, it is not just for the youth (how can an event centred on a dinosaur be truly youth centred?) AND its over a week. So I’m pretty sure it’s not WYD but World Catholic Week.
Yes, anyone is *welcome* (technically yes, perhaps not practically) but is just a farce to suggest that this is a celebration of the world’s youth. Gays? No! Teenagers who are having pre-marital sex? NO! Teenage girls who’ve had abortions? NO!!! It is an exclusive, selective religious event catering for religious youth who are not celebrating their own lives, but celebrating the lives that they think God controls for them. Free will is not really in the equation.
As hats points out: WYD is an event no one, except Christians, want. I know I’m not representative of the entirity of Sydney, but not one person (including a massive number of young people) I’ve spoken to about it wants it. Not even the Catholics. Not even the Catholic Youth! The amount of money our "secular" governments are throwing at this event is outrageous, and the bottom line is, in the 2006 Census, about 3% of the Australian population were classified as "Catholic Youth" (15-24). Thats just ridiculous! For 3% of the population, the Church and our Governments are cordoning of Sydney for at least three days and then telling the other 97% who are potential protesters to abandon their civil rights and stay at home. All this for religion - aah.
In my opinion Australian Governments (federal & state) shouldn’t be inwolved into this event.
In the way it is endorsing huge hipocrisy in Catholic Church:
How many crimes are still hidden in Vatican archives!!!!
BELOW SOME DOKUMENTED FACTS:
"The Catholic Church has accused a BBC documentary of a "deeply prejudiced attack" on the Pope over claims of a systematic cover-up of child sex abuse.
Panorama examined a document which allegedly encourages secrecy in dealing with cases of priests abusing children.
It says this was enforced by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became Pope.
The Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, Archbishop of Birmingham, said the claim was "entirely misleading" but the BBC said it stood by the programme."
" Vatican In Possession Of Top Secret CIA Documents About
Nuclear Weapons Programs
By Greg Szymanski
www.arcticbeacon.com
25 Apr 2006
According To Discovery Made Recently In Northern California Federal Court Case Involving Vatican Bank
Experts were shaking their heads over the shocking discovery, as Church critics were questioning what the Vatican was doing with sensitive CIA documents ultimately involved in protecting national security interests of the United States.
What really goes on in the underground catacombs of the Vatican has always been a deep, dark mystery. Over the years, disenchanted priests and unwilling eye witnesses have come forward with horrific tales of child sacrificing.
But now according to an explosive CIA document - never before made public - top Church officials have also been hiding under their black robes sensitive secret documents about high-powered rockets, atomic energy and nuclear weapons.
A top secr