palestine
15 May 2008
Al-Nakba is not the Holocaust
Last week, Israel marked its 60th anniversary of independence. Today, Palestinians commemorate 60 years since Al-Nakba, the Catastrophe
Today is a day that I and other Palestinians write about on an annual basis. However, this year when I pitched an article to a leading Australian publication in which I asserted that ethnic cleansing took place in Palestine in 1948, the editor told me the claim "was spurious, as how do you explain the one million Palestinians now living in Israel if it were true".The response highlights the very serious issue of Al-Nakba Denial.
Al-Nakba marks the dispossession of 700,000 Palestinians driven out of historical Palestine, in a process acknowledged today as ethnic cleansing, illegal under international law.
"Catastrophe Day" is, however, much more than just a date. It is the day when Palestinians collectively remember massacres such as Deir Yassin, where 90 Palestinians were killed, the 400 plus villages levelled and the hardships of over 4 million UN registered refugees still living in camps.
Nearly every Palestinian family has a "nightmare" that is retold with ritualised passion during this week. Homes and gardens destroyed, fields set alight, water wells poisoned, uncles shot, fathers beaten or sisters raped.
These discussions include complicated issues such as, for example, understanding the Absentee Property Law passed by the Israeli Government, which cleared the way for the confiscation of refugee property.
In an act of collective responsibility and social consciousness, Palestinians commemorate this tragedy through oral and other forms of documentation, ensuring generations to come will not forget; a feature they share with the very people who inflicted their suffering upon them, as Jews worldwide remember the crimes of the Holocaust.
And herein lies the difficulty. Al-Nakba is not the Holocaust. It was not genocide or the mass murder of a people, and it is offensive to many Jews to compare the two.
However, there is little dispute today that a process of ethnic cleansing did take place in Palestine between 29 November 1947, when the UN voted to partition Palestine, and the mass exodus post the Declaration of Israeli Independence on 8 May 1948. And as Israeli Government archives have become available in the last decade, this Palestinian narrative is finding new factual validity from unlikely sources.
Benny Morris, Ilan Pappé, Avi Shlaim, Tom Segev and Simha Flapan are the more prominent of Israel's historians to have concluded that ethnic cleansing took place during the 1947-9 period. They have backed this with historical data, facts and analysis from archives and documentation.
For example, in his latest book, The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine, Pappé draws from the archives of David Ben-Gurion, Haganah and Irgun to reveal a deliberate plan by Jewish leaders to ethnically cleanse Arab cities and villages getting in the way of the creation of the Jewish State. The intention of the infamous Plan Dalet of 10 March 1948 is still in some dispute, but the consequence remains the same: the ethnic cleansing of Palestine's indigenous population.
Denialism is used to describe the position of rejecting propositions on which a scientific consensus or widely accepted historical evidence exists. Strangely, Al-Nakba Denial seems to be much more socially acceptable than other forms of rejectionism.
It acts on several levels. First is the manner in which Palestinians are repeatedly admonished to "forget the past", that looking back is "not constructive" and "doesn't get us closer to a solution".
It seeks to undermine history out of fear of claims for compensation or restitution, in much the same way the recent Apology to Australia's Indigenous people was feared.
The Right of Return illustrates this, as Palestinians are castigated for forwarding a "Trojan horse for the destruction of Israel", despite the validity of the claim under international law, cemented in UN resolution 194. Histories of Al-Nakba and Palestinian suffering are belittled as narratives of victimhood.
On the extreme end, the Al-Nakba experience is argued to be a fabrication and deception, despite the historical evidence - a proposition that raises its ugly head a lot more frequently than most would believe.
This prejudiced argument is founded in colonial Eurocentric concepts of history and cultural identity typified by the Zionist catch cry of the time: "a land without a people for a people without a land", in much the same manner that "terra nullius" informs anti-Indigenous rhetoric in Australia.
Worse still is the argument against the Palestinian right to self-determination, which correlates directly to the colonial attitude typified by Golda Meir's infamous statement: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people ... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
This argument - which was rejected during the 1980s - has re-emerged as a major facet of mainstream Israeli politics, with more than one Israeli Minister publicly arguing for the "transfer solution" to the Arab population, which would remove Palestinian citizens from Israel.
A series of Israeli Government-funded surveys have shown growing support among Israelis for this solution: 33 per cent of Israelis in 2003, compared to 24 per cent in 1991.
The proposal completely disregards that the "deportation or forcible transfer of population" is defined as a crime against humanity by the International Criminal Court. This euphemism for ethnic cleansing is being accepted with little argument or rebuttal internationally.
To the contrary, any suggestion that the Israeli State or Zionism has any undertones of racism is met with hysterical counter claims of anti-Semitism. Discussion of Al-Nakba is often met with pejorative disregard at best and blatant prejudice at worst.
Ethnic cleansing refers to various military policies or practices aimed at achieving security during war through displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory. In the defining words of Andrew Bell-Fialkoff, commenting on the Yugoslav phenomenon: "ethnic cleansing [...] defies easy definition. At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population exchange while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide. At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of a population from a given territory."
By their very nature, various Al-Nakba narratives will remain in the grey area of history. But to deny a process of ethnic cleansing occurred at all is a serious injustice that the Australian media should not be perpetuating.
Delicious
Digg
StumbleUpon
Newsvine
Facebook
Kwoff
Discuss this article
To participate in the discussion Sign in or Register
Well said, Taimor Hazou, well said!
Dazza.
Well said indeed.
Now we are just waiting for the hysterical responses from the pro Israel mob calling everybody with an ability to reason from known data anti-semitic.
They will probably also be provoked by the posting of caustic and inflammatory comments :)
There is always a reason for the position someone takes. I think it would be interesting to look for the ‘reason’ as to why Israelis, in the main, and their supporters are so adamant about denying the reality and truth of the Palestinian experience.
It seems to me, that most rational people, would know that the foundation of Israel was basically illegitimate. The UN had no right to partition Palestine against the will of the majority living there and while Israelis may live immersed in deep denial, the Palestinians are a reality on the ground which challenges their mythology of ‘a land without people for people without a land,’ and the more recent fantasy that there were no Palestinians when Israel was established.
There is nothing harder for people to lose than a dream and Israel has always been a dream (for many a nightmare) steeped in myth, fantasy, denial and lies and breaking through that wall of ignorance and deceit is incredibly difficult.
To recognise that Israel is no more than a modern coloniser like everyone else, with no particular rights to the land it has settled, is traumatic to anyone who believes in the dream. And yet, sanity pushes people to know unconsciously, if not consciously, that Israel was founded illegitimately.
so too have all colonizing nations been but that is the point. The Israelis don’t see themselves as colonizers, or won’t see themselves as colonizers, let alone brutal occupiers, and until they do, they cannot become legitimate in the way that other modern colonizers like Australia have done.
So they become increasingly paranoid, move deeper into denial and increasingly hysterical when the truth is presented by others.
I have to say though, I have sensed in the past year or so an increased awareness of the reality of the situation and the injustice and suffering to which the Palestinians have been, and still are, subjected.
I think the tide has turned. Israel is the new South Africa, and, despite the screams and hysteria and lies and denial, it will also be dragged, kicking and screaming into a modern and more civilized world.
col
Thanks for a great article. Until recently I have always relied on the mainstream media for information about the world and its quite shocking now to realise how little I was actually being told.
I find it incredible that the very people who experienced the horrors of the Holocaust should turn and become the perpetrators of incredible cruelty themselves. Lets hope you are right that the world is starting to see what Israel is really doing in Palestine. I certainly am.
Great article. I cannot understand how the so-called ‘free world’ has let this horror against the Palestinian people continue. The Jewish state has to fess up to its history and the sooner the better. The world is changing and people are not so easily hoodwinked by the ‘holecaust rhetoric’ that Israel has abused to suit its own ends. I am past caring about being accused of anti-semitism a term that is loaded with prejudice. I cannot understand how a people who have suffered as the Jewish people have can be so strong in their denial of the ‘ethnic cleansing’ they have committed against the Palestinian peoples. As a Scot I know what colonialism does to people and how it robs them of their dignity and identity. To make millions of people refugees on some fable is a terrible crime and they will have to face up to it one day. Any nation that believes it is chosen for some higher purpose is a danger as we already know from the history of humankind. All the human endeavour that is used to lie and deny truth could be used to build a better world for all the peoples. When will that day come? The conversation has to change so that the dialogue can take place and people may yet learn to live in harmoney on this beautiful planet. That is the dream that more of us need to dream. No matter how often Georgy Porgy sings the praises of this country which weilds far too much power its dirty deeds are being exposed more and more.
Well said, everybody, well said, indeed!
The ‘worm’ is turning! At last!
Dazza.
It is profoundly sad and unfortunate for all of us that the Palestinian -Israeli situation persists. It reminds me of the childish argument —- "it’s mine" "no its mine" "no i saw it first" "no i was here first" "no its mine see i licked it its mine now"—-. There is no maturity or evolution in thought to indicate that we have all arrived at multinational cohabitation to enable a more wholesome resolution. Because the United Nations made an incredible decision there is no reason that the error should persist beyond a new reasonableness.
No incompletely researched and subsequently inappropriately planned operation should be exempt from a future correction to which all parties should have subscribed. But this is too unreal. So we are condemned to many repetitions of this type of conflict. The strong will always believe that they have rights over the weak. Might is right. While we have this carnivorous attitude to our fellow man we will persist in devouring his assets and him if necessary.
Many groups have their holocaust. The only argument appears to be "Who had the biggest one?" What, Absolute numbers or percentage to population?
Hitler is supposed to have said "Who remembers the Armenians?" when challenged about the historical success of getting away with his agenda. Now the Israelis appear to be asking "Who remembers the Palestinians?"
If the Palestinians commemorate Al-Nakba, then what is the name of the event that the Egyptians commemorate during the Passover in which the Angel of death killed the first born of every Egyptian? If this is an historical event then as a religious atheist I have to suspect there must have been foul play? Sounds a bit like Plan Daleth
So there will be no resolution to the situation whilst such deep history dictates the current and persisting psyche of the protagonists.
For those of us who have spent our whole lives witnessing this event we must carry our own histories silently since the world stage can only entertain one orchestrated drama at a time for which a peaceful resolution may not be an objective but simply an agenda of continuity.
Somewhat akin to an incurable obsessive compulsive dysfunctional indulging in a ritual ad infinitum.
The greatest power in the world is public opinion. Israel has been allowed to do what it has done because people have not cared enough. Certainly she must have powerful friends who call the shots in all the corridors of power, but, at the end of the day, the more that people in the world demand justice, the greater the chance it will happen.
I hope New Matilda is not becoming New Matildastan! This is yet another article misinformed by inaccuracy and cliched bigotry. We can have little hope in solving this problem if we continue to allow so much misinformed nonsense to go unchecked.
The number of refugees and the reasons for their flight in 1948 have long been a source of fractious historiographic debate and negotiations starting points. One fact is reasonably agreed upon; on 27 November 1947, the Arab Palestinian authorities - the Arab Higher Committee led by the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Hussein - rejected the UN General Assembly’s partition resolution 181. Israel’s subsequent military victory resulted in what the Palestinian narrative calls al-Nakba - the disaster; a passable Arabic transliteration of the Hebrew, Shoah. This victim identity permeates Palestinian historiography, and indeed, much of the post-Zionist or “new” Israeli historiography. It also colludes in attempts to co-opt the real Holocaust narrative for the Palestinian Nakba.
Even when there is a degree of civilised consensus on the archival data, there are many informed differences of interpretation even among historians and scholars of integrity. So we can only cringe when polemicists like Antony Loewenstein LIE that Israel was always intent on ridding its land of all Arabs and that the “opportunity came in 1947-48, when Jewish forces drove up to 700,000 Palestinians into exile.” No such academic consensus exists. On the contrary the issue is complex, the pattern of events chaotic. After all, this was a war! Indeed the top scholars do adduce evidence that some Arab leaders did urge Arab Palestinians to flee their homes in Israel. Nor does the Israeli historian Benny Morris say anything resembling what M&W, AL etc. cite him as saying.
Here is what Benny Morris actually wrote:
"In some areas Arab commanders ordered the villagers to evacuate to clear the ground for military purposes or to prevent surrender. More than half a dozen villages — just north of Jerusalem and in the Lower Galilee — were abandoned during these months as a result of such orders….there was no Zionist policy to expel the Arabs or intimidate them into flight."
On November 30, 1947 the day after the U.N. decision to partition the British Mandate of Palestine, the Arab reaction began - violent, manic, the sword was par for the course. Seven Jews were killed. In the following days stabbings, shootings, beatings coupled the attacks on the consulates of Sweden and Poland (Danish cartoons anybody), torching of synagogues. Molotov cocktails in shops. On December 3 the Palestinian leadership ordered the razing of the Jewish retail precinct in Jerusalem. On December 4 over 100 armed Arabs attacked Kibbutz Efal on the outskirts of Tel Aviv.
But what do we get from Taimor Hazou, AL. or any of the Usual Suspects? Of course not. What do we get? The unsupported claim that “Hard line elements in the Zionist movement also rejected the partition.” However, it does not take long to find AL’s source, where in Pappe’s book we get violence “was activated by hot-headed youth on both sides,” triggered by the Haganah. Of course, perish the thought that Arabs could get “hot-headed” without Zionist ‘triggers!’
There is so much nonsense posted by Taimor Hazou fleshed out here. http://culturewarriorwatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/partition-and-deir-yassa…
I’ll return later today to contend with some of his more outrageous claims
wilko
good article. it is a shame that mainstream media does not have the courage to publish the truth about the situation in Palestine.
CultureWarWatch.
Even the UN at the time of partition recognised that two thirds of those living in Palestine were non-Jewish and that a majority of people, including some Jews, opposed the partition.
It is a matter of historical record that the Palestinians lived there. It is also a matter of historical record that nearly a million were dispossessed by the Zionists.
But, at the end of the day, such figures are irrelevant for there can never be any justification for the brutality of Israel’s occupation and continued colonisation of Palestine which stands as one of the most murderous and vicious in modern history.
The simple fact is that establishing a country on someone else’s land is wrong; occupying people is wrong; brutalising those you occupy is wrong; continuing to dispossess and colonise is wrong; imprisoning without charge is wrong; imprisoning children is particularly wrong; torture is wrong; demolishing people’s homes and orchards is wrong; carving the star of David into the flesh of Palestinians is wrong; shooting children is wrong; bombing civilian areas is wrong; demonising a people is wrong. The list is long and could go on. Israel is guilty of all of these things and this is what must and will be addressed regardless of how many were dispossessed in the first place.
The Catastrophe?
This could be applied to Australia day by Australia’s indigenous.
Anzac Day by the Turks
Mother’s day by abortionists
Jews have lived in "Palestine" for thousands of years,
Where on earth do you get off calling the left overs from the spoils of the Jordanians Egyptians and Syrians a people?
Next the gypsy Bedouins will want a flag and their own parliament too.
At least the author does agree it’s not a holocaust, carefull, you’ll be labeled a zionist,Taimor.
True some people calling themselves Jews opposed the partition, because they believed, rightly or wrongly, that Israel cannot be proclaimed until the messiah arrives. Well so what.
The Jews have it, and if the Palestinian Terrorists don’t give it up, then they will be extinguished.
The claim that massacres and rapes occurred is true in that the interneisine fighting between Arabs (still going on as we speak in Lebanon , the west bank and Gaza) was the sole cause.
Taimor, your credibility is shot down in flames.
You do your people no good with this kind of disingenuos treatment of the situation.
The two state solution is on the table, don’t blow it by being a fool.
Salam,
Shalom,
Peace!
Culture War Watch, why do you insult the intelligence of the bloggers on this site? Do you believe we don’t already know the Zionist’s distorted version of facts without you regurgitating the same schpiel and the same insulting lies we already hear every day from the Murdoch press?
A number of bloggers on this site are Israeli citizens who have served in the IDF, who have lived in Israel, who have qualified at Israeli Universities, and who are only too aware of the massive lies and deceipt on which that disgraceful state exists.
As an Australian I have never personally been the victim of racism or anti-semitism but I can bear witness to the fact that I have experienced tons of hatred and racism against my family and friends as an Israeli in Israel where we were even denied access to certain housing because we are "not jewish enough". I know of at least two other bloggers on this site who are Sephardic and others who are Falashas and who can attest to very similar experiences.
Keep your hateful bile and distortions for the uninformed while the rest of us pay our respects to our Palestinian brothers and sisters on this 60th anniversary of their Al-Nakba and as we share the pain of their suffering we should reflect that while any blood is spilt anywhere in Palestine we are all Palestinians.
Rogerio
Errm Revilo, don’t you also find it peculiar how it is always you lot who have never worn a uniform or who do not have to man the Israeli/Palesinian road blocks who have the "bravest" things to say?
Since you feel so strongly about it I assume you are already on your way to report for your tour of duty with the IDF hey Revilo? Maybe you could serve in the Sayeret Egoz or Duvdevan or the Shaldag?
For your sake I hope not Revilo, and you can reverse track on the rhetoric, see? Why? Well because the whole world has figured out the Zionist scam already Revilo and besides, Hezbollah has the upper hand now, and as the evil empire falls into greater economic decline fortune will favour the brave, which is definitely not the IDF!!
Here is a clue Revilo, repeat after me, "Go Hezbo!!!"
As the anti-Apartheid activists told their Zionist type white racist friends in South Africa, you might as well "Adapt or Dye" Revilo, because change is not going to happen, it’s already happening! Israel is in decline, a failed experiment, the last outpost of the Dark ages!
Many Jews Revilo, like Ronnie Kasrils, who took up arms and spent his whole life in uniform fighting apartheid and racism, and others like him, we are all sick of the B/S Revilo. Not in our name! Go there yourself and put on a uniform and do your own dirty work!
Alternatively just try to move with the times Revilo, and get over Israel, "the Jewish state". It’s easy Revilo, look, I’m over it! Easy!
Revilo, you might as well get used to it because in your lifetime the world will welcome the "new egalitarian state of Israel/Palestine" in which Jews will have the same rights as any other religious group in the region and there will be special priviliges for no-one except the citizens and the taxpayers, just like everywhere else.
Go Hezbo!!! They are the only true freedom fighters in the Middle East you know revilo!
GV
Told you everyone would get hysterical , no hope for the ot of you :)
ros and rogerio
I am not really sure what you mean by accusing me of being a "Zionist." I am just providing a more nuanced and contextualised response to the cherry-picking that seems to dominate articles on this subject on NM.
While I would love to discuss the particular points I have made, I don’t find it at all helpful to respond to people who just dump a spray of unconnected gripes.
What I still can’t quite understand is the pure arithmatics of the Palestinian situation.
If the Palestinian population was only 700,000 in 1948, then how come have they managed after 60 years of wars, hardship and genocide, to increase their population to over 3,000,000?
Culture War Watch says "I am just providing a more nuanced and contextualised response" - Is that right? With your accusations like this one - "we can only cringe when polemicists like Antony Loewenstein LIE that Israel was always intent on ridding its land of all Arabs" - not very contextualised or "nuanced" is it? Why don’t you quote the words of various Israeli leaders and Prime-Ministers, including the current corrupt war criminal Prime Minister of Israel, on the topic of "ridding it’s lands of all Arabs"? Why, instead, do you prefer to regurgitate all the debunked trash from the popular media who get it wrong ALL the time?
"I don’t find it at all helpful to respond to people who just dump a spray of unconnected gripes" - good thinking! Take your own advice.
What you and denise are attempting to introduce into this debate is precisely the same tripe which holocaust deniers use in their attempts to discredit history’s most recorded genocide. Is denise denying that there are 3 million Palestinian refugees? Exactly what is denise’s point?
Instead of distributing vicious bile about Anthony Loewenstein and the reality of the Palestinian genocide, why don’t you two find one of the Palestinian villages, like "Qiryeh al-Sir", and research it?
Research how these people live in appalling conditions deprived of all their most basic rights and who are forced to pay the same taxes as their jewish counterparts. Even apartheid South Africa did not tax their victims! The people of Qiryeh al-Sir are Bedouins, Beduoins whose lives and lifestyles are completely ruined and who are not even permitted access to their own water wells!
The Al-Nakbar is very real, maybe not for you, like the holocaust was not real for most of the world who denied the truth before the irrefutable evidence of the death camps was found, but for the Palestinians it is as real as the holocaust, as real as the shoah is for the rest of us.
If you are capable of believing that a whole nation of peaceful people uprooted themselves, that entire populations faked a mass exodus, countless deaths, murders and genocides, crossed over into foreign lands and into huge refugee camps from which there was no escape and no return and nothing to look forward to but a lifetime of misery, all in the interests of achieving some vague political or public relations victory against an innocently aggressive Israel then you are no longer attempting to insult our intelligence, you are insulting your own intelligence because then you are also capable of believing the rubbish which the holocaust deniers would have us all believe about the innocence of Nazis and their death camps.
Nobody but the ignorant believes that rubbish anymore. Rogerio and ros are quite correct, their criticism of you is too mild.
GV
My point is that the real Palestinian cause has never been and is still not based on the formation of a separate state or identity to that of Israel, but is intent on a complete annhilation of the Jewish identity by the elimination of the state of Israel.
They have never accepted they lost (in multiple wars) their old Palestinian territories, which have now been replaced by the modern state of Israel and the two Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.
Perhaps a three state solution might work even better, that way Hamas and Fatah can each rule a state the way they think fit? Looks like Hezbollah already run Lebanon.
It’s too late to turn back the clock and yet this is exactly what many (and all who believe in a ‘one state solution’) believe the politics of the Palestinians should be.
When will they realise that to comiserate on the loss of their land, (lying about the the Jews as invaders and strangers to the land) and then to unrealistically expect to win it back, by using tactics like kidnappings, suicide/homocide attacks and armed militias who fire off rockets everyday trying to kill innocent Israeli citizens, is not only not going to work, it’s so obviously just stalling tactics, that makes you think they are waiting until they do have the resources to strike Israel on a large scale.
But after 60 years, this scenario appears highly unlikely, that is unless Iran was involved.
Their entire attitude to the state of Israel is so unrealistic that it must be based on spoiling tactics designed to delay any peace process betweeen Israel and the two territories of old Palestine, Gaza and West Bank and will probably go on indefinitely if the international community (US/Europe) allows it to.
Excellent article Taimor Hazou.
64 years ago MY family was ethnically cleansed the Nazis - I know of only about a dozen family members who survived the Holocaust period and of only one relative who remained in post-war Hungary. Our homes and lands are owned by others and indeed several years ago the EU retrospectively approved our dispossession to permit Hungarian entry into the EU.
From this you can understand why people such as myself are obliged by personal family History (as well as by basic human decency) to oppose the dispossession and ethnic cleansing of the Indigenous Palestinians and indeed of ANY people.
The Palestinian Genocide is genocide as defined by the UN Genocide Convention which involves "intent to destroy a racial, religious or ethnic group in whole or in part". That is what has happened to the Indigenous Palestinians - there are roughly 11 million Palestinians world-wide: 5.5 million living outside the Holy Land and forbidden to return; 1.5 million are Palestinian Israelis (second class citizens living in an ethnocracy under Apartheid-style race-based laws); 4 million are Occupied Palestinians imprisoned (uncharged, untried, and mostly women and children) in the over-40-year-duration Samaria, Judaea and Gaza Concentration Camps and subject to remote military policing (bombing by aircraft, shelling by distant artillery) - and all subject to the will of US- and UK-backed Apartheid Israel (5.5 million Jewish Israeli colonizers).
Post-1967 excess deaths in the Occupied Palestinian Territory total 0.3 million (mainly deaths from deprivation); post-1967 under-5 infant deaths total 0.2 million; there are 7 million Palestinian refugees (4.3 million registered with the UNHCR); 85% of Christian Occupied Palestinians have fled; UNICEF informs us that 2,400 Occupied Palestinian infants die avoidably EACH YEAR; violent and non-violent excess Occupied Palestinian deaths total about 5,000 EACH YEAR (about twice the total number of Jewish Israelis murdered by Palestinians since 1949 , according to Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs data). .
I am haunted by the WW2 holocaust and am obliged to adhere to the most fundamental messages arising from THAT catastrophe, specifically "zero tolerance for racism" and "never again to anyone" - injunctions that have been daily violated by Apartheid Israel and its Western backers fro 60 years.
Australians should wise up to their racist, lying, anti-Arab anti-Semitic, Zionist-beholden Mainstream media and Lib-Lab politicians and just think for a moment - what if what HAS happened and IS STILL HAPPENING to the Palestinians happened to US?
We are all Palestinians (see "We are all Palestinian. Apartheid Israel’s Gaza Concentration Camp & Palestinian Genocide": http://mwcnews.net/content/view/19915/42/ and "Apartheid Israel’s 60 years of war, theft and Palestinian genocide": http://mwcnews.net/content/view/22356/42/ ).
Peace is the only way but Silence kills and Silence is complicity.
Mr Hazou
What you seem completley unable to grasp, is that the issues you raise are based on the very same prejudiced discourses you seem to find problematic. You are calling Jews liars for the sake of them being Jews. It is based on a racist steroptype of the decieving Jew. If you understood this better you may be able to understand the objection to Al-Nakba that so many Jews around the world have. These overtones of anti-semitism is what raises the ire of world Jewry.
Steven, Qld.
Steven, three facts, a state which calls itself "the Jewish state" committed the ongoing genocide against the Palestinian people. Any person who denies that fact is a liar, and if that person is Jewish, well then we can accurately call the person "a Jewish liar".
Secondly, "Jewish" describes a person’s religion, not their nationality.
Thirdly, "world Jewry" (whatever that means) does not get their hackles up over Israel’s acts of genocide against the Palestinian people at all, the Zionists do.
Now, explain which part of the Al-Nakba is anti-semitic again? You are joking right?
Or are you suggesting that "world Jewry" should be left, unhindered, to murder millions of Palestinians in complete safety and beyond any criticism for fear of offending genocidal maniacs because they happen to be Jewish? And then we should all pretend it simply never happened just to keep "world Jewry" happy.
Steven, "World Jewry" is the racist Jewish person’s code word for "world Zionism" and Zionists have not completely wiped out the world’s non-Jewish semites quite just yet, so you can stop using language which pretends that Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese have already been ethnically cleansed, deserve no recognition as human beings and that the only semites left in the world are all Jewish!
Oh and Steven, learn to shout, at the top of your voice, and with a braod smile on your face, the following phrase….. GO HEZBO!!!
GV
Rockjaw/Ros/Rogerio
I think you three have many other issues you are projecting onto this thread and onto me. As I said, I am happy to discuss the issues, but not so interested in angry and tendentious flights of fancy.
Taimor Hazou
claims that UN General Assembly Resolution 194 passed in 1948 gives the Palestinians a “Right of Return” to Israel. This is yet another egregious example of the misinformation and outright lies that many freely peddle and unfortunately many more are either too gullible or too bigoted to question. In fact 194 was passed with the future security of Israel firmly in mind.
Let us quickly revise some of the Israeli security concerns. They started the day the state of Israel was formed. The first occurred after Israel, Egypt, and Transjordan signed a cease-fire in March 1949 and the admission of the state of Israel to the United Nations two months later on 11 May 1949. While Israeli soldiers had succeeded in occupying twenty percent more of British Mandated Palestine than the United Nations 1947 partition, Israel insisted on a comprehensive peace treaty with the Arab states.
The Arab states refused and so Israel refused to withdraw its position, and would not permit Arab refugees to return to their homes in Israel. For their part the Arab states refused diplomatic recognition of Israel
To understand why, in the coming decades, Israel, or indeed any member of the United Nations, might not give a fig what UNGA Resolutions say, we need to go back to the 1940s. Of course, notions of international law and particularly UN Resolutions pepper Antony Loewenstein’s ‘Israel Question.’ Ah yes, the UN General Assembly. In this phase of U.S. involvement in the Palestinian refugee issue the central institutional authority was the United Nations. In fact, in the early years the U.S. tried to be as even-handed, and even not involved, in the refugee issue.
The armistice agreement following the 1948 War based on UN Resolutions 194 set the parameters for the next 18 years. However 194 did not resolve issues of water-sharing among the parties nor the return of the refugees. The U.S., Britain and France, worried about their future influence and strategic interests in the region, sought to limit further conflict through a Tripartate Agreement that limited the sales of arms to either side.
In this phase there was no official recognition of the unique identity of the Palestinians, even by the Arab world itself. There was not even a Security Council Resolution. General Assembly Resolution 194 of December 11, 1948 called upon the Arab states and Israel to resolve all outstanding issues through negotiations either directly, or with the help of the Palestine Conciliation Commission established by this resolution.
The emphasized words demonstrate that the UN was not satisfied that the cease-fire "borders" were sufficient, and that some of the refugees would have to be resettled around the world like refugees in any conflict. Thus claims that Resolution 194 provides a universal "right of return" are wrong. The refugee issue was but one of many to be negotiated.
The Arabs, however, started a pattern that continued to thwart them for decades. They simply refused to compromise or negotiate.
As Hanan Ashrawi so tragically admitted:
the rejection of the 1947 UN partition plan as “with the benefit of immaculate hindsight the worst plunder we made was not accepting the 1947 UN petition.
Thus the Arabs once more unanimously rejected the UN Resolution. The General Assembly voted, in November, 1948 to establish the United Nations Relief For Palestinian Refugees (UNRPR) to dispense aid to the refugees. The UNRPR was replaced by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNWRA) in December 1949.
However all this is moot as the Resolution was never a legal resolution bestowing “rights” on anybody.
Taimor, AL, and their ilk have always cited 194 as their “right” of return. Putting aside the fact that 194 does not mention the word “right,” or “Palestinians,” unlike Chapter 6 and 7 Resolutions of the Security Council, Chapter 4 Resolutions of the UN General Assembly were never designed to have the force of law.
The UNGA is empowered to refer to the Security Council, matters it thinks require a judicial decision; no such referral was ever made regarding 194. And even if it were, among other criticisms, the Israelis have always maintained that the refugees do not want “to live in peace with their neighbours.” And just quietly, I defy anybody to provide evidence to the contrary!
However, neither the Arab states nor Arab lobby/political groups thought that the refugees were a distinct entity to bargain on behalf of either. On the other hand, the Palestinian’s belief in their “right” of return has over time evolved to transcend strict legalistic interpretations of “rights.”
One of the top handful of misdirections taken by the Palestinians are those western advocates who have expended so much puff and wind telling the refugees they have a “right of return.”
http://culturewarriorwatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/arab-rejectionism-of-un-…
Sensible, anti-racist, humanitarian, fellow Australians can see through the evil of Zionist anti-Arab anti-Semitism.
Just consider the following Articles of the Universally-agreed-to Universal Declaration of Human Rights (see: ), just SOME of these Articles that have been grossly violated by Apartheid Israel for 60 years in their horribly abusive racist treatment of the Indigenous Palestinians [brief details in parentheses]:
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person [0.3 million post-1967 Occupied Palestinian excess deaths; 0.2 million post-1967 Occupied Palestinian under-5 infant deaths; 800, 20& kids, Occupied Palestinians killed each year by Israelis; annual excess deaths 5,000, annual avoidable infant deaths 2,400].
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms [now 4 million Occupied Palestinians , mostly women and children, imprisoned without charge or trial in military-guarded Concentration Camp conditions for over 40 years].
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment [huge torture and child imprisonment of Palestinians by Apartheid Israel].
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law [Occupied Palestinians are "non persons" without rights to life or property according to their military jailers of Apartheid Israel].
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination [1.5 million "lucky" Palestinian Israelis are second class citizens under Nazi-style, Apartheid-style race-based laws; 4 million Occupied Palestinians have no rights; 5.5 million Palestinians are permanently exiled outside the Holy land; 7 million Palestinian refugees; 4.3 million Palestinian refugees registered with the UN].
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law [see #7].
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile [presently 4 million imprisoned , now for over 40 years without charge or trial - their only "crime" has been to be Arab Semitic Indigenous Palestinians].
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him [see #7, #9].
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed. [see #7, #9].
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks [see #7, #9].
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. [11 million Palestinians; 5.5 million forbidden to return to their Homeland; 4 million imprisoned oindefintely in military-guarded Concentration Camps aka Apartheid Israeli "Bantustans"].
etc etc.
The fundamental messages from the Jewish Holocaust are "zero tolerance for racism" and "never again to anyone" - core moral messages violated DAILY by Apartheid Israel and its racist Western backers for over 60 years, racist who ALSO horribly violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Fellow Australians, what if the racist Zionists had done just a PART of this to YOU and YOURS?
Peace is the only way but Silence kills and Silence is complicity.
DrGideon
the Universally-agreed-to Universal Declaration of Human Rights
You are having a bit of a joke, aren’t you? Otherwise do you have any evidence of this "universally agreed to" claim? For example, I have not seen the Australian parliament incorporate the UNDHR into legislation. Actually, I am not aware of ANY country on earth that has done so.
Indeed, the Muhammadans won’t have a bar of it. They have their own "Human Rights" declaration - Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI), which surprise, surprise is devoted solely to racist and misogynist exclusion of all women and all non-Muslim males.
Readers of this thread - anti-Arab anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are just as repugnant as anti-Jewish anti-Semitism and, notwithstanding the evil efforts of the racist Zionist-beholden Mainstream media and politicians, still utterly un-Australian.
I am a conservative, agnostic humanitarian and in my cosmopolitan life have variously SHARED company, house, bank account, bed, property, business, laboratory bench, beer, whiskey, wine and food with "Muslims" ranging from the non-observant to the extremely observant.
ALL of these good, generous Muslim connections of mine believe in and observe the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the core Holocaust messages of "zero tolerance for racism" and "never again to anyone" (indeed most were victims of racism and - unlike the evil, racist Zionists and Bush-ites - wouldn’t dream of inflicting such racist awfulness on others).
Peace is the only way but Silence kills and Silence is complicity.
Dr Gideon you are so one-eyed you should take a look at your own slanted comments about the Jewish state, which was not formed on ‘evil’ principles as you constantly declare, but on the finest of motives, as a homeland and security for the the Jewish people.
At the time there were less than one million Palestinians,
some of which some are now integrated into Israeli society, some may now be living in a Palestinian diaspora, but hardly as refugees (except in their own minds). Those in the camps choose to stay (mostly Muslims) to provoke the Israelis on a daily basis, because that is their ONLY cause.
This is a pititiful state of affairs brought on by their own lack of initiative in improving themselves beyond what Israel can provide for them. They still don’t accept they lost ALL of the WARS. ASnd they still don’t accept that they are not the ONLY indigenous people to the region.
And because of their own small-minded nationalism, rather than being integrated into another nearby Muslim society, they spend all day thinking up revenge and ways to threaten Israel and wave their aggressively violent Islam.
An Islam that doesn’t even acknowledge that the Koran was based almost solely on the Old Testament, the BOOK that declares the Jewish people as the rightful discoverers of God. A BOOK that declares the area (the real reason the Koran was written) to the right of the Jews to their own state, (but it’s OK if they want a MUSLIM one!!!) so the Palestinians will continue to suffer from their own blindness to the truth that began two millenium ago and continues in ignorance to this day in some people’s ignorance about the BOOK.
Palestine as a fully fledged nation at the moment is a very dangerous concept for the world, because even as a small state power, some of the political elements that have strong jihadi tendencies, do not value their own lives as the jewish people (and most others do) and will continue to deceive and control the poor masses. Poor in attitude and poor in wisdom to believe they can remove the Israelis physically.
So who in their right mind would allow such a risk as an integrated Palestinian state, just for Hamas and Fatah to express their violence towards each other, not to mention Hezbullah?
A Palestinian state at the moment would end up destroying and desecrating the entire region, with their militia and suicide/homicide bombings showing no respect for Jewish or Christian holy sites.
A Palestinian state would also pander to petty (but highly dangerous) Palestinian infighting and so because the Palestinian people have shown over 60 years of crying genocide and ethnic cleansing (as they multiple in to millions more - because the more they are - the more they can threaten the Israelis) they have shown they are nowhere near ready for such a state of responsibility.
And I doubt they ever will be, because it suits them to appear downtrodden and hard done by.
And there is no need to explain why is there!!!!
Denise and CultureWarWatch, do you know why the two of you find it impossible to present a reasoned argument in favour of racist criminal Israel?
It is because racism, nazism, apartheid and zionism are not acceptable to the modern world, that’s why.
Denise, you and Culture War Watch should civilise yourselves and evolve away from those terrible archaic and racist views.
You two are not Nazis or Zionists are you? Of course not! So join the rest of Australia’s majority Culturewarwatch, and the vast majority of the modern world as we reject, with disgust, that filthy regime in Tel Aviv and which you and denise find impossible to defend in a reasoned debate.
You are both Australians and everything which Israel stands for is repugnant to everything which civilised Australians value and respect!
By now it should be obvious to the pair of you that Israel, zionism, apartheifd and nazism are all an affront to everything decent and civilised in the modern world.
If you like I could help you with a few ideas on how to design and make your own "Go Hezbo" banners and other anti-Israel paraphernalia so that you two can join the rest of the civilised world in expressing your disgust at those filthy criminals.
You could even consider legal action against the Israeli foreign representatives in Australia for their part in misleading you with their propaganda to such an extent that you are at risk of becoming complete social reprobates in civilised Australian society.
You don’[t have to feel like a pair of lepers anymore you know, you could reject the dark side and join the modern civlised world, like everyone else.
Let me know if you need some help and I will help you as much as I can! If you do decide to bring legal action against the Israeli authorities I will be more than happy to make a financial contribution towards your legal expenses.
Now remember, say out loud and clear, with your head held high and proud,
"GO HEZBO!!!"
- and you will not have to hang your heads in shame anymore!
Try it, it will make you feel really good!
George Vickers
very sad when people’s concept of God has become limited to simplistic doctrine.
It says in this book…………….
therefore I can bulldoze houses , orange groves, rip up power and water…..
Palestinians , "pititiful state of affairs brought on by their own lack of initiative in improving themselves"…….
Guess they should show dogged determination in rebuilding houses and replanting their livelihood.
While you have no soul and there is nothing left but unwinnable land to fight for, the self destructive behaviour of the Palestinians will prevail.
In order to help them find their soul I suggest they begin to view the state of Israel as a long term reality - here to stay.
They must grow up and learn to live and work with their Jewish neighbours, or lose everything. And if they are persistent in the genuine rebuilding of their lives with what little they have left, they will earn the respect of the International community, while they allow the lives of the innocent Israelis, many whose families have been living in the region continuously for all recorded time to live in peace.
And wake up to the fact that most of rest of the world treated the Jews as as second class citizens (up until 60 years ago) and that Israel is the people’s original homeland, reinstated and here to stay for good (not evil).
The Palestinians should also stop lying about their genocide and ethnic cleansing, when the numbers just don’t add up.
Australia was also settled and taken over by non-indigenous people, invaders, mainly British, 200 years ago, so what makes the Jewish settlement of Palestine any less palateable to you anti-Zionists? What’s right for one lot of indigenous people - and the difference here is that there are Jews with continouous settlement in the region since the beginning of recorded history. So theoretically the Jews have more right to their land than many of us Australians do for ours.
Those of you who vent your venom on the Israelis and Zionism, should take a look at your own ancestor’s behaviour and ask why they had the right to go and settle in Australia and then realise that you have double standards. And that is the lowest type of person, someone who does not actually practice what they preach.
Would you or your families accept a forced return to Europe or from wherever your ancestors originated from, just to accommodate the wishes of the indigenous peoples of Australia? I don’t think so!
And to suggest that any of us have evolved into a more peaceful, compassionate and less violent species or group of communities, (but only in the past 150 years) is naive at best and ignorant at worst.
Why should mankind all of a sudden, (a lie because we know what happened half way through the last century) become more peaceful, when all of our recorded histroy thus far tells us otherwise? Sounds like some sort of silly Christian type of peace and love (just like the idealistic hippies) indoctrination about the state of mankind if you ask me.
You anti-Zionists are kidding yourselves if you think you have any chance of turning Israel into the modern state of Palestine in the near future, without violence???
Realistically, there needs to be an interim period of time, with at least a two, if not a three state solution, for many decades to come.
While you have no soul and there is nothing left but unwinnable land to fight for, the self destructive behaviour of the Palestinians will prevail.
In order to help them find their soul I suggest they begin to view the state of Israel as a long term reality - here to stay.
They must grow up and learn to live and work with their Jewish neighbours, or lose everything. And if they are persistent in the genuine rebuilding of their lives with what little they have left, they will earn the respect of the International community, while they allow the lives of the innocent Israelis, many whose families have been living in the region continuously for all recorded time to live in peace.
And wake up to the fact that most of rest of the world treated the Jews as as second class citizens (up until 60 years ago) and that Israel is the people’s original homeland, reinstated and here to stay for good (not evil).
The Palestinians should also stop lying about their genocide and ethnic cleansing, when the numbers just don’t add up.
Australia was also settled and taken over by non-indigenous people, invaders, mainly British, 200 years ago, so what makes the Jewish settlement of Palestine any less palateable to you anti-Zionists? What’s right for one lot of indigenous people - and the difference here is that there are Jews with continouous settlement in the region since the beginning of recorded history. So theoretically the Jews have more right to their land than many of us Australians do for ours.
Those of you who vent your venom on the Israelis and Zionism, should take a look at your own ancestor’s behaviour and ask why they had the right to go and settle in Australia and then realise that you have double standards. And that is the lowest type of person, someone who does not actually practice what they preach.
Would you or your families accept a forced return to Europe or from wherever your ancestors originated from, just to accommodate the wishes of the indigenous peoples of Australia? I don’t think so!
And to suggest that any of us have evolved into a more peaceful, compassionate and less violent species or group of communities, (but only in the past 150 years) is naive at best and ignorant at worst.
Why should mankind all of a sudden, (a lie because we know what happened half way through the last century) become more peaceful, when all of our recorded histroy thus far tells us otherwise? Sounds like some sort of silly Christian type of peace and love (just like the idealistic hippies) indoctrination about the state of mankind if you ask me.
You anti-Zionists are kidding yourselves if you think you have any chance of turning Israel into the modern state of Palestine in the near future, without violence???
Realistically, there needs to be an interim period of time, with at least a two, if not a three state solution, for many decades to come.
Denise, I know this is going to be very difficult for you to swallow, but get this - you are not really a superior human being! Really, you’re not!
If you found that difficult to swallow, suck on this - you are not even superior to those Palestinians whom you hate so much!
It’s staggering, I know denise, a major culture shock and all that stuff, but it really is true.
Here’s another little fact you can suck on denise, if you can handle it - most of the world considers Palestinians equal to you and also opposes, with growing disfavour, the behaviour of today’s zionists, neo-zionists and misguided and insolent "ubermensch" Israeli politicans who show such little regard for human life.
It’s true denise, victimised Palestinians today receive growing support from the civilised communities of the world which is why the majority of Australians sympathise with the Palestinian victims of the horrors of Zionist Israel.
So don’t come and spin your schloep schpiel about "the Jews this" and "Moses that" and "promised lands this" and "the bible that" because those arguments have long gone all floppy a long time ago already.
Real Jews, like freedom fighter Ronnie Kasrils and CIA officer Philip Geraldi, and many others like them, express far more realistic and Jewish related views about Israel than your zionist propagandists.
They turn their backs on Zionist Israel, as do most young Israelis today, as teenagers and young couples emigrate, in their droves, to escape anywhere but near the barbarous state of Israel.
Look up those real Jews denise, and learn from them what it is to be a Jew today, and not from those cheap scummy zionist murderers who have filled your head with hatred and who have stolen the real Israel from us all.
George Vickers
Firstly, I do not think of myself, or any other individual as a superior being, only God is that.
And as far as the Palestinians are concerned, I feel no hate for them, only sorrow and pity for their circumstances, which I believe could be helped if the international community really wanted to provide for their basic needs.
They also need their aspirations met and security in their own lives, but not at the expense of the Israelis, both peoples (and all religions) must learn the art of compromise.
And the reason so many young Israelis are emmigrating is not just because of daily threat of violence in their communities, but for the fantastic opportunities available in other nations, just like all the young emmigrants of other nations, who are not actually turning their backs on the idea of their own nation or homeland, but seeking different pastures.
Even the Koran makes reference to the all of the major scribes of the Old Testement, which also forms a large part of the Christian doctrine, so what’s your point?
What you and others must realise is that it’s not about you or me, or what we think or feel, but about what those people who are living there now in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza think and feel.
Well said, Rockjaw.
About 45% of the Occupied Palestinians in the Apartheid Israeli-run West Bank and Gaza Concentration Camps are aged 0-14 years (see: http://esa.un.org/unpp/p2k0data.asp ), over 50% are under 18 (i.e. are CHILDREN) and about three quarters are Women and Children.
For an outline of the SHOCKING living conditions of roughly 2 MILLION Occupied Palestinian Children in the Apartheid Israeli-run West Bank and Gaza Concentration Camps see UNICEF: http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt.html (Apartheid Israel passively murders 2,400 Occupied Palestinian under-5 year old infants EACH YEAR).
Any Jew, any Australian, any American - ANY person - who KNOWINGLY ignores, denies, minimizes, obfuscates, supports, advocates or is otherwise complicit in gross, race-specific crimes against Women and Children (such as the appalling, continuing crimes of the racist Zionists running Apartheid Israel) has crossed the line separating decent humanity from AWFULNESS of the kind decent humanity had thought it had defeated 63 years ago.
Peace is the only way but Silence kills and Silence is complicity.
the link to Jonathon Cook’s article on the Nakba march in Antony Lowenstein’s latest contribution pretty much negates the pro- Israel views of the likes of Denise. Just another verifiable example of the standard practice of the Israeli police , that of unreasoning hatred.
Oh and don’t forget that devasting attack on Lebanon recently in an attempt to annexe the part of southern Lebanon that is historically claimed by Israel.
The IRONY of reading some of the contributions on an article about prejudice and racism is unbearable.
I think the article, puts a very strong case and backs it up not just with quotes but links(eg. I didnt know about the two Israeli ministers linked in the article-though I do agree with the Palestinian cause) and EVIDENCE. The response is underwhelming to say the least, none of the antagonists provide any real data or supporing facts. The links provided are dubious internet opinion. For exmaple the CWW arugment and link objecting to UN194 is riddled with holes- using Ashrawi’s quote for exmaple (which we have seen before) is a disingenious way of responding to her honest pragmatism in hindsight, it is not a validiation of dismissing the right of the Palestinians to reject the 1947 partition, when THEY WERE NOT EVEN a VOTING MEMBER STATE of the UN.
Further, Hazou provides the link to actually UN194 resoltion, which states: "11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;"
Is it just me or am I the only one who finds some of these comments seriously prejudiced and problematic. How can these people actually say these things and why are we letting them get away with.
Quite frankly while this a public debate some of the comments are racist in themsleves and should either be removed or challenged via HEROC.
I rest me case- quote on quote:
"I hope New Matilda is not becoming New Matildastan" -CWW > not funny.
"Where on earth do you get off calling the left overs from the spoils of the Jordanians Egyptians and Syrians a people? Next the gypsy Bedouins will want a flag and their own parliament too." -Rev >so bedouins dont deserve the aspiration for statehood becuase they are nomads is that the argument. Sounds awfully familiar!
"The claim that massacres and rapes occurred is true in that the interneisine fighting between Arabs" -Rev > yep, only Arabs commit crimes in war.
"What I still can’t quite understand is the pure arithmatics of the Palestinian situation. If the Palestinian population was only 700,000 in 1948, then how come have they managed after 60 years of wars, hardship and genocide, to increase their population to over 3,000,000?" - Den > the point exactly.
"They have never accepted they lost (in multiple wars) their old Palestinian territories" - Den > thats right they didnt, which is it ‘scally wag weak, backward and indifferent Arabs’ or fighters defending their land trying to kill jews. Thats two prejudices you can choose from.
"When will they realise that to comiserate on the loss of their land, (lying about the the Jews as invaders and strangers to the land) - Den > whos lying- how, why, where’s your evidence. You cant just claim their lying for the sake of it. Oh and I thought even in Israeli history the far majority of the emmigrating Jews were strangers to the land; sorry I must have missed something.
"claims that UN General Assembly Resolution 194 passed in 1948 gives the Palestinians a “Right of Return” to Israel. This is yet another egregious example of the misinformation and outright lies that many freely peddle and unfortunately many more are either too gullible or too bigoted to question. In fact 194 was passed with the future security of Israel firmly in mind." -CWW > yes, thats true it covers the rights and secruity of both the Jews and Arabs. How exactly was Hazou lying then! The link is their anybody can read the actual legilsated motion.
"And because of their own small-minded nationalism, rather than being integrated into another nearby Muslim society, they spend all day thinking up revenge and ways to threaten Israel and wave their aggressively violent Islam." - Den > my breath is taken away! Clearely the small minded arab only thinks of revenge.
"An Islam that doesn’t even acknowledge that the Koran was based almost solely on the Old Testament, the BOOK that declares the Jewish people as the rightful discoverers of God" - Den > a slighlty igronant and stereotpyed assumption i think, actually my understanding of Islam is that is exaclty what they say - that they are returning to the religion of Abarahm and Moses and the Christians got it wrong (im not sure on this- so somebody correct me -Irfan?)
"A Palestinian state would also pander to pretty (but highly dangerous) Palestinian infighting and so because the Palestinian people have shown over 60 years of crying genocide and ethnic cleansing (as they multiple in to millions more - because the more they are - the more they can threaten the Israelis) they have shown they are nowhere near ready for such a state of responsibility." - Den > Im now getting slightly overwhelmed with the blatant racism as I go through this excercise.
"The Palestinians should also stop lying about their genocide and ethnic cleansing, when the numbers just don’t add up." - Den > ok, sorry everybody, I think Ill stop now. You can read the rest yourselves.
POINT, GAME, MATCH - Hazou, i think your article is spot on! Well done for raising the ugly issue of Al-Nakba Denialism.
Last point for Rockjaw; please stop with the Go Hezbo line, its a bit rude and quite frankly insulting of our intelligence if you think many of us cant differentiate between Israeeli crimes and Hezbollah crimes- both have their guilty. Both have fought as soliders and BOTH have committed crimes against civilians.
Well thanks for that purensimple, and your criticism is well noted.
George Vickers
PS Go Hezbo! (I could not resist it now could I? They really are the only legitimate resistance to the occupation and I think they deserve some support)
We all know the Christians must have got it wrong and that they are the real hypocrits in this religiously orientated terrritorial conquest of Israel/Palestine, because as they profess to be a peace-loving people, statistics from the nations they rule would prove otherwise.
It will be interesting when the armies of Hezbollah and Hamas meet on the Temple Mount to fight over one of the Jewish people’s (and only for Christians and Muslims because of the Jewish faith) holy site.
I only hope the Jews remember the wisdom of Solomon and leave the place before they blow each other to kingdom come!
Then at last they will be able to return in peace - Amen.
Ok, sorry everybody came back to see any replies, and read these and had to add these quotes aswell:
"A Palestinian state would also pander to petty (but highly dangerous) Palestinian infighting and so because the Palestinian people have shown over 60 years of crying genocide and ethnic cleansing (as they multiple in to millions more - because the more they are - the more they can threaten the Israelis) they have shown they are nowhere near ready for such a state of responsibility" -Den > so you dont get the demogrphic numbers, but clealry have an issue with the Palestinians ‘breeding’ (my words- apologies) and multiplying AND then patronsiing tell them cant rule themselves; sounds familiar yet again.
"Those of you who vent your venom on the Israelis and Zionism, should take a look at your own ancestor’s behaviour and ask why they had the right to go and settle in Australia and then realise that you have double standards. And that is the lowest type of person, someone who does not actually practice what they preach." -Den > I thought thats why we acknowledge the wrong, said SORRY (Feb 13 2008) and now must consider compensaion and remedies to the injustice.
"And as far as the Palestinians are concerned, I feel no hate for them, only sorrow and pity for their circumstances." - Den > how nice of you, though from your posts alone I beg to differ.
This dicussion is crazy, how can we even be having this conversation -or is it just me!
I have no doubt they would hate me and probably want to kill me but no I do not hate them and would not want to kill them.
You can say what you want I know what I feel about this situation and how ingrained some attitudes are towards a supposed enemy, but I just don’t think like that, possibly because I’m not an Israeli, but an Australian with a Jewish background.
Interestingly enough I am not born of recent Jewish immigrants, but rather I am a third generation Australian on my mother’s side, who incidently gets mistaken for a Palestinian every so often!
Denise, you have got to be by far the most amusing person I have ever come across in this debate about Israel/Palestine!
Your mom is sometimes "mistaken for a Palestinian?" - and this is amazing because of her religion?
Denise, I wonder how many of us Jews are mistaken for being Philistines because of Israel?
GV